Dealing with Amazon can be a right pain

[Timboli]

First up, let me say, there should be a Sticky topic at the very least, but probably better as a sub-forum, called something like - Problems with Ebooks, Ereaders and Stores. Not somewhere to complain about missing features, but somewhere to share stories about bad formatting and other errors, plus features that don't work as they are supposed to ... or are maybe just incomplete, plus lack of service or poor service ... even stupid policies.

Sharing such stories, can help others, especially where a resolution was found, or just make us all better informed, especially potential buyers.

I have a few stories myself. Here is the latest, which I dealt with today, but has been ongoing for weeks.

I have had to get a refund for three parts of a story, because Amazon have put an incorrect restriction on the 4th part and have wasted heaps of my time trying to correct the issue. My apologies to author Wilson Harp, but this needed doing, if just to point out the flaw in their Help system, and to warn others. At the very least, the Publishing Team should have contacted me at some point in the last few weeks.

Here is my story, as presented to Amazon Help.

Well, this is my third and final contact with Amazon Help in an attempt to fix this issue.

A few years back, Hugh Howey wrote the Wool Trilogy ... an Indie writer sensation.
He then very kindly allowed Fan Fiction authors into that Universe.

To date there have been well over a hundred stories or part stories written by these authors, and I have purchased most of them.

Generally they have been released under the banner of Kindle Worlds, and all form a part of what is called collectively the Silo Saga.

One of these Fan Fiction authors is Wilson Harp, and he wrote a four part story, releasing each part gradually over time.

I purchased each part as it came out, but never saw the release of the fourth part until recently, while browsing Wilson's Amazon Page.

When I clicked on the ebook, it took me to the usual ebook web page, but no purchase option was available, instead it said - This title is not currently available for purchase.

Clearly this is an error.

This is not about some Publisher who doesn't allow releases for Australia, as Amazon is the sole publisher. I have had a conversation with the author, Wilson Harp, and he confirms this and also says I should be able to purchase it.

On two previous occasions I have tried to get Amazon staff to understand, and eventually they do, and they agree with both Wilson and myself, that an error has occurred, and needs fixing. They however don't do it, just offer to pass my concerns onto The Team.

On my last (second) communication with Amazon over this issue, which went for well over an hour, until I lost the connection, nothing was resolved and I still cannot purchase the story.

On that occasion, I tried going up the chain, until I could find someone who had the power to fix the issue. That clearly did not happen, and I have expended too much time already on this ridiculous state of affairs. Even so, I decided to write this as my third and final attempt to get the correct result.

All the Amazon staff I have spoken to, agree this is an error and an unfair situation, so if this is not resolved shortly, I only have one option open to me ... getting a refund.

There is no point to me having an incomplete story, especially when missing the ending, so I will be asking for a refund for the first three parts. If the fourth part cannot be sold to me, then neither should the first three parts have been. To do otherwise would be wrong and unfair, if not illegal.

I will also, in that scenario, no longer purchase any more Silo Saga stories, as I will no longer feel I can trust Amazon. And of course, my lack of trust will extend beyond Silo Saga stories. I will also be publishing my experience everywhere I can think of.

This issue should have been fixed immediately after notifying Amazon the first time.

Here is the link for the ebook in question, Silo Saga: Conspiracy (Kindle Worlds Novella) (Hart's Folly Book 4) Kindle Edition -
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_dp_rw_ca_4

Wilson Harp's Amazon Page - https://www.amazon.com/Wilson-Harp/e...t_pop_ebooks_1

It is notable, that the ebook, the 4th part of the story, is not visible to me when searching for it or when browsing Silo Saga stories. Only visible to me at Wilson Harp's Amazon Page.

I believe he has also released the four parts as a complete ebook, but that is also invisible to me.

I am an Australian citizen, who bought my first Kindle before there was an Australian Amazon website. I have not changed over to the Australian Amazon Store, as most of the authors I follow are American. Obviously I don't have to change over, as it is one of choice.

ADDENDUM - During my second contact, I cleared my web browser history, both reloaded & refreshed the web page, plus also restarted my browser, and logged in and out of my account a few times etc, all to no avail.

I had hoped, that the threat of asking for a refund for the first three parts, plus not buying any more Silo Saga stories, and the added threat of posting on Social Media etc, would have been enough to heighten their concerns enough to fast track a resolution, but clearly not. So anyway, it was no idle bluff by me, and the refunds should be granted to my account within a few days. A very unsatisfactory situation all up. I have also of course written a review for each part at Amazon, containing most of this post. Now I will sit back after posting a few other places, and see what happens. Never poke the bearded dragon.

[darryl]

I'm posting to let you know that I have been able to verify the essence of your post. Since Amazon is usually so good I was very prepared to find that the fault lay somewhere with you. It does not. The problem, and I'm surprised that Amazon could not tell you this, is that Kindle World books are restricted to the United States. They are not supposed to be available to readers outside the US. Authors outside of the US are not eligible even to write a story in a Kindle World. I could not find this information quickly on Amazon but it is available on many of the sites for particular worlds. For example, see http://www.carlyphillips.com/dare-to...kindle-worlds/. Or just Google it. I hope this information is out of date and KW is now worldwide, but if so I was unable to find any reference to this in my quick search.

None of the books in the series are available on amazon.com.au. It seems Amazon's problem is not that you can't purchase the 4th book. It is that you should not have been able to purchase the first three. Clearly something has changed at Amazon since your purchase of the first three books in the series. Perhaps their system previously did not enforce these restrictions in the case of a US account with an address in Australia but has since been updated. Perhaps there is some other reason.

It is not good enough. Amazon is a great company and does most things very well. But it is still often guilty of treating those outside the US and UK as second class customers. Sometimes it has little choice in the matter due to the archaic system of licensing by geographical regions. In the case of Kindle Worlds this should not usually be a problem, as authors grant Amazon the right to publish their stories on a worldwide basis. However, Hugh did sell Australian rights to Wool to one of the Big 5. Whilst I doubt any contract Hugh signed would prevent Australian distribution of Kindle World stories set in the Silo Universe, I don't think Kindle World's existed at the time, so it is a possible additional complication.

I also think a refund is far from adequate compensation when you have invested your time in reading the first three parts and are invested in reading the conclusion to the story. Barring complications from Hugh's traditional contract for Australian rights to Wool, which I think is unlikely, Amazon would have the right to sell the last book to you, making an exception to their own policy preventing it. It would of course need to be a one-off as Amazon's system obviously no longer caters for it. Your best course may well be to email Jeff Bezos directly on jeff@amazon.com outlining the problem and asking specifically for Amazon to make arrangements for you to purchase the book.

Of course you can take steps to bypass the restriction, though you should not have to resort to this in these circumstances.

Good luck.

[barryem]

What an interesting situation!

I suspect that since Amazon has an evolving automated system things get caught in the cracks from time to time and, being automated, they probably have no way to fix it. Allowing the CS reps to override their system in random ways might be a reckless move in a company of this size.

Before I retired I worked for a large multinational corporation. When I started there as a programmer I was one of only 3 programmers and the only one with professional experience. There were 67 employees in the company. Years later they had grown to monstrous size.

When I started there I could do anything practically without restriction. At one point I caught a problem that could have cost several million dollars overnight and I fixed it. The Chairman and a few of the VPs took me to lunch the next day.

About a year before I retired they called a large meeting. A long time employee had spotted a problem that could have cost the company a lot that night and had fixed it. Even though they realized his intentions were good they were firing him for acting without authorization. And they had to. The system had gotten so big they couldn't afford that sort of risk.

He got fired for doing the same thing I had been congratulated for a decade earlier. And they were right. They were managing 400 billion dollars of other people's money at that time and they simply couldn't allow things to be done on the fly.

That's one of the problems with the size of a company like Amazon. It gives them huge opportunities they couldn't have if they were smaller and gives them just as many restrictions.

Of course I'm just guessing that this is why they didn't solve this, but I think it's a fairly safe guess.

Barry

[Timboli]

Thanks Darryl for all that information. Great to know.

You are right, those ebooks in the Kindle Worlds collection don't show up (last I checked anyway), on the Australian Kindle Store (amazon.com.au), which is why I never changed to that store, when it became available, but kept my account, as I am entitled to, at the main Amazon store. This is what a lot of people like myself do, especially after hearing horror stories from some of those who have changed.

Like I said in my first post, I have bought nearly 100 of these stories and never had a problem before. I have also seen more recent releases, that I was thinking of purchasing from the Silo Saga (Kindle Worlds), that still have the purchase option available to me, so this appears like a mistake to me, for that particular ebook, and no doubt some others I expect, but not the greater majority. Certainly the full novel, which contains all four parts, is in that mistake category.

This whole saga (sic) is ridiculous anyway, and Amazon should be leading the way when it comes to supporting other countries, so draconian measures like country exclusion is not something they should be engaging in, as a publisher themselves.

Most disappointing of all, is the powerlessness I felt after dealing with their friendly staff. It should have been clear that something was not right, and someone should have been on the phone telling management there was a problem. Especially as I doubt I am the only one in this situation. The ebook was published back in April 18, 2016, but I only became aware of it a few weeks ago, and not for want of trying ... though I had dropped off checking for it in recent months.

I will have a look at contacting Jeff Bezos, as you suggest.

P.S. My memory tells me, that at least one Australian author has contributed to the Silo Saga (Kindle Worlds).

[issybird]

I'm coming away from this account with two reactions. The first is that you have to know when to give up. Some battles aren't worth fighting. The fourth part of a fan-fiction story? Better to move on early.

The second is that I don't think you can ever count on being able to buy future works. Sometimes the work never happens. In this case, it happened but not for you because of geo-restrictions. So it goes. I don't see why Amazon has an obligation to you and you really can't expect them to violate those restrictions.

All of that said, I understand how infuriating this has been. I've found myself in similar situations and the battle itself can take over. Amazon's only real failure, however, was not being able to diagnose the problem early, instead of validating your impression that you were entitled to buy the story.

[Timboli]

@barryem - I suspect you are right, and also being a bit of a programmer myself I am no stranger to some of what you say, so I have similar suspicions myself. Still someone has the power somewhere along the way, to fix things. Even if it's just removing the book and then re-instating it, making sure it is done correctly, as many others clearly are.

What I really expect has happened though, is that no-one I chatted with has been motivated or understanding enough to push the right buttons. Sure they probably passed my concerns on, but not in the manner they needed to be. I expect my issue has been lumped in with all the regular issues related to - This title is not currently available for purchase. So I would just be seen no doubt, as one of the regular complainers, and not someone reporting an actual error. If I'd been put on the fast track pile, I would have had a result by now, I am sure.

[theducks]

Issybird
Aren't Geo restrictions Publisher-author instituted?
If so, this SNAFU is the Authors fault, in that they may have changed the rights because they got signed by a biggie and did not consider that their fan base was world wide BECAUSE there were no restrictions.


Good customer service SHOULD be able to make exceptions (following CO guidelines)
In this case previous purchase history would establish 'Existing series purchase' base for that series. New series would not be covered, even if it was a Favorite author.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by issybird

I'm coming away from this account with two reactions. The first is that you have to know when to give up. Some battles aren't worth fighting. The fourth part of a fan-fiction story? Better to move on early.

In a very real sense, by asking for a refund, I have kind of given up. I however threatened to publish everywhere I could if they didn't see sense, so that is exactly what I am doing. If that ultimately fixes things, and I am able to get that part, the final part of the story, then that will be a bonus at this point. Sometimes these battles have to be fought, because they have a tendency to happen again. Something needs to change in their Help system and I am pushing for that.

The second is that I don't think you can ever count on being able to buy future works. Sometimes the work never happens. In this case, it happened but not for you because of geo-restrictions. So it goes. I don't see why Amazon has an obligation to you and you really can't expect them to violate those restrictions.

For sure, you cannot count on anything, but seeing as the author has published the 4th part, and said I should be able to get it, then Amazon do indeed have an obligation both to him and me, else why present themselves as a service. The restriction is of their own making, not some other publisher, and I fail to see how doing the right thing in my instance is violating anything.

All of that said, I understand how infuriating this has been. I've found myself in similar situations and the battle itself can take over. Amazon's only real failure, however, was not being able to diagnose the problem early, instead of validating your impression that you were entitled to buy the story.

That is not correct, all along they knew a restriction was in place. What they took so long to understand, was that it shouldn't be. Then because of their position in the scheme of Amazon hierarchy, they weren't able to fix it.

The only way that I got the impression I should be able to buy the fourth part, was because of the other three parts, and the nearly 100 other similar stories. Letting me buy those in the first place, was all the validation I needed.

Withholding that 4th part from me, was unfair, unethical and immoral. The facts speak for themselves. And if I can make them feel it was also unwise, then perhaps I have done my bit in the battle.

P.S. And I also have another reason to battle on. How can I possibly trust Amazon will do the right thing when they need to? I have bought into their scheme of things, by buying two Kindles, and hundreds of ebooks, so I am at their mercy, and trust is an important element when continuing to purchase from them. There is more a stake here, than just one ebook.

EDIT
Hugh Howey created a great scenario, and while I am not someone who usually buys fan fiction, I was motivated to do so in this instance, especially with Hugh's enthusiastic support. And in several instances it has been very worthwhile, and some of the stories have been absolutely brilliant. I even contemplated adding to the Silo Saga myself.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Timboli

P.S. And I also have another reason to battle on. How can I possibly trust Amazon will do the right thing when they need to? I have bought into their scheme of things, by buying two Kindles, and hundreds of ebooks, so I am at their mercy, and trust is an important element when continuing to purchase from them. There is more a stake here, than just one ebook.

You are not at Amazon's mercy. All you have to do is strip the DRM from the eBooks that have DRM and them you can do with them as you like.

Go see https://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/ to find out how to remove the DRM and get out from under Amazon's thumb.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by theducks

Issybird
Good customer service SHOULD be able to make exceptions (following CO guidelines)
In this case previous purchase history would establish 'Existing series purchase' base for that series. New series would not be covered, even if it was a Favorite author.

Exactly.

I am not someone who bothers to contact Amazon for every unfair restriction I find. This was beyond the pale though, as it meant the story I had was incomplete.

I am a great fan of Robin Hobb, who has released a novella, Words Like Coins, that I and other non-Americans cannot currently purchase. Like many, I have complained to her privately. She blames her publisher, apologizes and says she has no say.

I have all the other books in her series, in which the novella is set, but it is not required reading, not an integral part of the series, and so I can survive without it. Sure I feel cheated, but not in the same way as with the 4th part of a story ... especially as that part is the ending.

[darryl]

The problem is that Kindle Worlds has not been rolled out beyond the United States. Amazon's system mistakenly allowed the purchase of these books. It appears Amazon has now corrected this, at least for this particular series. It is also worth noting that novels set in Kindle Worlds are not what I would regard as fan fiction. Whilst some works are no doubt by new authors many are by quite well established authors.

I think Amazon does have an obligation here, firstly because its systems have made these books available to the reader without him entering into any sort of subterfuge or taking any steps or in fact even being aware that the books were restricted to the US. Secondly, the geographical restrictions in this case seem to have been imposed by Amazon itself. What I believe is happening is that Kindle Worlds is being trialled in the US in preparation for a rollout worldwide, which has not occurred, at least as yet. If this is the case then Amazon can and should make an exception in this case. If not the OP may wish to consider bypassing the geographic restrictions to obtain the book. However, it must be borne in mind that doing this will almost certainly breach Amazon's terms of service and may result in Amazon suspending or even cancelling the account, even though bypassing such restrictions does not itself seem to breach Australian law.

Malcolm Turnbull, the then communications minister and now prime minister of Australia issued a faq which says so far as relevant that:

The Copyright Act does not make it illegal to use a VPN to access overseas content.
While content providers often have in place international commercial arrangements to protect copyright in different countries or regions, which can result in ‘geoblocking’, circumventing this is not illegal under the Copyright Act.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You are not at Amazon's mercy. All you have to do is strip the DRM from the eBooks that have DRM and them you can do with them as you like.

Sounds like a good backup plan, a fail safe, but going down such a road, may lead to an issue where I can no longer make purchases with Amazon. I always prefer to go the legitimate route first and do the right thing.

Especially as you have to obtain any book first, before you can remove DRM from it, unless you are into obtaining illegal pirated copies, which I am not.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by darryl

The problem is that Kindle Worlds has not been rolled out beyond the United States. Amazon's system mistakenly allowed the purchase of these books. It appears Amazon has now corrected this, at least for this particular series. It is also worth noting that novels set in Kindle Worlds are not what I would regard as fan fiction. Whilst some works are no doubt by new authors many are by quite well established authors.

I am not sure this is the case at all, as I can still see about 127 Silo Saga (Kindle World) stories, including the first three parts, which still have a purchase button. And like I said, earlier, I recall at least one author who has participated as being Australian. That stuck in my memory, as I was also considering it.

One Amazon operator on my second contact, after I went up the chain, actually looked at the 4th part, and took note my account was still with Amazon.com and said she didn't understand why I couldn't purchase it. That's why we went through the log out, browser refresh etc.

As for bypassing the geo-restriction, the guy I spoke to at Amazon this last time, recommended I get a U.S. billing address to do exactly that ... perhaps from a friend. Which after the research I have recently done, quite surprised me ... coming from that quarter.

I have used the Opera VPN and a Private window, to confirm that the purchase button does exist, when I present as from the U.S.

EDIT
Silo Saga: The Porter (Kindle Worlds Novella) was published on July 11, 2016, which is a few months after Part 4, and it has a Purchase button.

And here's the rub, I can purchase nearly all of Wilson Harp's books and he has at least two pages worth. I can do a search on his name and I see all but Part 4 and his complete novel (all 4 parts). I can do a search on the Hart's Folly series, and only the first 3 parts show up. So this is an isolated couple of ebooks.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Sounds like a good backup plan, a fail safe, but going down such a road, may lead to an issue where I can no longer make purchases with Amazon. I always prefer to go the legitimate route first and do the right thing.

Especially as you have to obtain any book first, before you can remove DRM from it, unless you are into obtaining illegal pirated copies, which I am not.

Amazon will never know you've removed the DRM. If that was the case, it would have been posted about on MR and it has not been by anyone.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Go see https://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/ to find out how to remove the DRM and get out from under Amazon's thumb.

Seeing as you brought it up.

I was wondering if those of you who are happy to remove DRM have ever considered how easy it would be for Amazon etc to embed an ID in every ebook file that gets sent to you, at the moment it is sent? An ID that is related to you only. It could easily fail to be detected and removed when the DRM is removed.

If they did such, then they could track the movement of the ebook, whenever the device it resides on connects back to their store, during a Sync etc.